it isnt that a lot of guys wouldn't understand. its that they don't fucking care. surely you feel the truth in her story, same as i do. aren't you aware this is an "everywoman" story in cocktail-waitressing? do you think this is only one bar in new york city that's like this? you sense the truth dont you.

but then you dismiss laura's sense of it, out of hand, IMHO. why do you think you know more about the existence of this world than the women who bear its burden?

I think you misunderstood me. Where was I dismissing her story? I was saying that men aren't as oblivious as she seems to think they are, NOT that these things don't happen. I assume they happen, having heard about it from other people.

How much of that world have you experienced? You can read her posts as if they were a novel, and say you can empathize, but how much of that is in your day to day reality?

Some men are aware of this kind of thing. But I think many, if not most, would find it much easier to say (to themselves), "She chose to work there." She chose to have her ass grabbed. She chose to be treated by a piece of meat by management and customers.

The fact is that, in our society, women's issues just are not considered "important shit" -- not by the wingnuts, not by the neo-liberals, not by the neo-cons, not by the academics. They point to Oprah and say, "See? Women and minorities have equal rights!"

But there's a different reality. This is just one tale. Sorry you did not find the story of interest, and/or that you found the link here threatening or insulting. How may we serve you better?

on mandos' comment. i don't think he was implying that the comments, behaviors and culture aren't offensive. i think he was just saying that even the men who make those comments, who behave that way know they are offensive. in fact, they engage in the behavior BECAUSE it is offensive.

and on that point i agree with him. it's not that men don't know that grabbing a woman's ass is offensive. it's that they know, and that's why they do it. they do it to make themselves feel powerful by humiliating a woman. they do it deliberately, with full knowledge that its offensive.

he was not saying that the men who do it know it's offensive but still do it out of a need to humiliate women, but that men who don't do it but know men who DO do it find it offensive.

Wait. I'm gonna drink some coffee and come back when coherence sets in.

men who don't do it but know men who DO do it find it offensive.

or maybe he meant that men who don't do it but know men who do do it know that men who do do it know that its offensive?

You must have drunk tons more coffee than me, artemisia. You make so much more sense ;P

Heh heh. Artemisia's take on what I was saying is the most correct one. The guys who say these things clearly know that it's offensive. It isn't lust from whence these kinds of comments emerge, at least not fundamentally.

But I also think that many men know that these things happen, perhaps even most men know it, and so I think that a little bit more credit should be given on that regard. BUT, of course, it may not really *be* credit, since if most men know that these things happen, then why do they happen?

Have another coffee :)

I think this calls for something stronger than coffee. Artemisia knows what I mean, heehee.

But seriously...

I think any ism is only allowed to exist with the unspoken complicity of those who maybe don't practice it, but allow it to happen. Classism, sexism, racism, you name it. As long as we don't fight it we're a part of the system that causes it to flourish, or if not flourish at least continue to exist.

This is true, but one can't always be at war. Oh ba dee, oh ba daa, life goes ooooon! We're not always our brothers' (or even sisters') keepers and are not always guilty on their behalf. It's a delicate balance.

This is true, but one can't always be at war.

that is the definition of privilege. white people can choose not to always be at war over racism. straight people can choose not to always be at war over homophobia. men can choose not to always take up the battle for women's rights.

those who are oppressed don't get to choose when, and under what circumstances, particular battle in the war of oppression is waged against them. if you're an african american, you don't get to choose when the police will stop you in your car just because of the color of your skin. when you are a lesbian or gay parent, you don't get to choose whether or not to always be at war for parental rights. if you are a woman, you don't get to choose which man will grab your ass when you go to your job as a cocktail waitress.

when you are oppressed, you are always at war. the only thing you can choose is when and under what circumstances you will defend yourself.

And another important component of that is knowing when you need to step back and find safe places, if possible. Places to be among your own kind where you don't have to explain yourself, pretend to be something or somebody you're not, and just have fun. Mandos's comment that we can't always be at war is apt to a point, and so is Artemisia's point that the oppressed don't get to choose not whether or not to fight--too often the war comes to them/us and is part of their/our daily lives. But even in oppression you can find humor and life-saving ways to cope. And if those coping mechanisms seem strange or inappropriate to outsiders, it doesn't matter. Because it's a necessary part of survival.

n/t

Having done the 'cocktail waitress' thing for years and years- it's just a way to make a living-- yes you are exploited- yes you are making a living from your appearance-yes its a pain in the ass-and yes men are grab-assing and being silly.It's sort of a deal with the devil- not that I believe in devils!
In a way,it was lots better than shuffling paper or sucking up to some banker. (Another story I will tell someday).

...as kactus points out, while oppressed groups often lose their choice of when oppression happens, the effects are not constant in time. And even if privilege allows one to escape some of these effects, is it always wrong to do the human thing and just relax?

I mean, I guess this could be extended to any number of other situations: when can you just be a bystander?

is always an option, and I believe one that the majority of the world chooses. And the shit that can come down on your head when you become proactive can really be a good argument for continuing to be a bystander.

BUT,BUT,BUT...sometimes you have to take action. And it's not always prolonged political action, either. Sometimes the most passive and/or jaded person can be amazed by their ability to be angered by injustice.

An example: when I was a young teenager (18 or 19) I was walking home from the bus stop when across the street I saw a guy just start beating on this woman who was with him. I didn't even think twice before running across the street and trying to intervene. Afterwards all of my friends told me how stupid I was for getting involved, that I could have just as easily gotten hurt myself, and so on. And yeah, they were right, but it didn't matter. I still would have done it, and I would do it again, too.

That's a minor thing, and just a personal example, but it extends to the larger world arena too. I totally believe in taking time out when burn-out sets in, but you can't just give up, give in, stop being involved, for the rest of your life. Even when it's such a huge injustice you don't know how you could possibly make a difference.

I see this passive sense of disconnection from the larger world in most of the people I know. These are the ones who don't vote because they don't think their vote will make a difference. The white folks who will listen to a racist joke and not protest, even if they find it offensive. The middle class or wealthy who know that the poor are suffering and dying but think that donating their unwanted canned goods to a pantry is "doing their part." And people who just can't be bothered to get their information from anywhere but the MSM.

So yes, Mandos, you can be a bystander in any number of situations, but should you be?

...that was kind of my question which you just asked me :)

I had a similar experience as you once. In that case, there were authorities in range that I summoned. And there was a language barrier. But I wonder whether the authorities were sufficient, knowing what I have heard about some of these Authorities.

But at the same time the world is full of ills that one can go around fixing. I doubt that you yourself spend all your time fixing them, nor anyone else reading this. So I guess the ethical question is: at what point can we be satisfied that we've done enough. Immediate danger is one thing, but generalized oppression?

you can fix the world's problems. Some of them are so huge and overwhelming that they will continue to always be problems. Jesus said the poor would be with us always, for example. But I would rather go to my death knowing that I actively worked for justice, even if it only immediately affected a handful of people, because there's no other way I can be content with my life. I don't have a lot to give otherwise--I'm not a poet, I'm not a painter, I don't create--but I can affect small changes, even something as simple as raising my daughters with decency to become decent women. And I believe--I KNOW--that even one person who walks through the world with honesty and decency makes a difference.

probably no- one will see this after all this time- but when I lived in San Diego on the boardwalk there- which is really cement- my G/f Angie saw a guy start whaling on a woman- she ran out of the house - and she is nobody to mess with- and took him apart-verbally. We gotta stand up,every time.
The guy slunk away and the gal came in for a glass of wine. Of course,no telling what happened later.

... for people who know it happens and turn a blind eye to it when it does. "Oh, that's just the way life is, life goes on, you'll get over it, yadda yadda yadda"

I do appreciate people who not only are aware that it happens, and realize that not only is it offensive, it colors my view of the world, forms how the world interacts with me, in ways that I cannot control. Who understand that grabbing the ass of an unwilling waitress is part and parcel of oppression, no matter how small a gesture it may seem to anyone else. It effectively says "You do not own your body. I am claiming the right to lay a hand on you in ways that you do not approve of."

I appreciate people who are not only aware that it happens, aware of the implications of the misogynist actions, but make an attempt to put an end to them. Everyone who tells his or her friends, brothers, fathers, uncles, bosses, etc, that this is not acceptable behavior, uncool, however they word it.

But credit just for being aware that it happens? Puh-lease. I think nearly every woman over the age of 24 is aware that it happens, and a great number below that age as well. To give credit to men for something that most women already know is like giving men credit for understanding that cramps are uncomfortable...

That was my personal experience and most of my g/fs who all worked together- but we were a bunch of very tough cookies who took no shit either. We were lucky to have a VERY fierce bunch of bouncers who were on it like hawks. Nevertheless, it was kinda fun and kinda degrading at the same time.
Later on,I worked in a union hotel, and I was the only waitress under 50. Now there was some serious envy probs. I was 24.
The thing was, they were there as a career and I was just passing through.
And yes, this being in CA, there was some serious racism going on, the INS made regular stops to weed out the' illegals'.
In fact, they would warn the hotel,and the managers would tell their people to stay home- there was going to be a 'sweep'.
Waitress stories are endless. TEEHEE

I'd have been banned a long time ago ;) I cuss like a damned sailor sometimes. It's my burden and my curse, no pun intended. Oh fuck. Time for more coffee.