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On male fantasieswords by Nonpartisan posted July 20, 2005 - 3:09am
After a comment of mine was deleted at my request (and others' urging) from another diary, I was asked by many to repost my comment as a diary entry. While I am not comfortable sharing something as personal as that comment on the front page of a website, I do think I can tackle some of the same issues raised there in a more general context. First of all, as noted before, I am a man. However, many of my favorite bloggers -- Lorraine, Maryscott O'Connor, and lately Laura/Mediagirl -- are women, and I have followed them to such sites as Booman Tribune, My Left Wing, Women Kossacks, and of course Our Word. I am aware that this is a community of women, and it is my intent (not always perfectly realized) to honor and respect that at all times here. I recognize that I am an outsider here, and I will at all times respect the wishes of the community. I am also not a troll, as Laura and Marisacat and many others know from their interactions with me on other blogs. I hope I can help to offer a broader perspective on certain women's issues that will a) help me to gain a fuller understanding of issues that I as a man face in everyday life and b) reveal some of the intricacies of male culture for the deconstruction and enlightenment of this community. The particular issues I was talking about involved male sexual and relationship fantasies, and I'd like to raise those issues again here. Many men, as we all know, have a desire to dominate their sexual partners and also their romantic ones. Many kind and caring men even desire to hurt their partners (though the kind ones never act on such a feeling). I'm not talking about rapists here, though of course those exist; also, I'm not talking about sexist pigs. I'm talking about ordinary men who are good people and reasonably feminist in outlook who suddenly give way to all the rankest forms of sexism when sex enters into the picture. I believe that many in the Radical Right fit this bill. Closet sexists, they seek to protect themselves from their own sexual desires by restricting women's clothing, reproductive freedom, and moral choices. Unfortunately, this very restriction is a way of acting out their desire to control women. Locked in a hypocritical cycle of their own making, these individuals can see no way out but more of the same. So here are my questions: what is it that you think drives men to have these fantasies? Is it society or hormones? Why do some men have them and not others? How can such fantasies impact an otherwise healthy relationship? How can they be controlled? How do you react to men who have them, on either an intellectual or a personal level? ( words about: diary )
Sexual fantasies are private things - so private we may never tell them to anyone else, let alone act on them. When people do to some extent act on them - with consenting adults - it has traditionally fallen under the "right of privacy." Until recently, the view has been that the state has no business in our mating acts unless there is some clear harm to the public good. Sexuality is often fueled by physiology geared toward mating. The question arises, to what extent should the state be part of the mating ritual when it is between consenting adults who mate in private? Some people will read what I wrote above and think, "oh, she's talking about sexual expression," and while that is completely true, I would like to say that I am trying to stretch it to more than that. The feminists of the early 1970's said, "sexism is a form of racism," and defined racism as, "discriminating either in favor or against an individual because of a common and naturally occurring physiological variation over which the individual has no control." In heterosexual sex, the biological goal is impregnation. If it is to move beyond an animalistic frenzy, it requires a certain co-operation and emotional state be achieved by the two parties. It gets more complicated in other forms of sex play, but the basics, I would maintain, remain the same. I want to side-step the issues of "normal," and "usual," and "natural" in that our images of these things are personal and private. On the other hand, I would be dodging if I did not address the fact that males are the one who impregnate females and much of sex runs along this line - where one of the parties is more active and the other more passive. Again, all the variations in private between consenting adults, notwithstanding. I find this terribly difficult to write, but I will plunge forward as I keep saying this point is important. The problem happens when laws have this state of affairs (man on top of woman) as the basis for the treatment of women. Yet, many laws either blatantly or subtly flow from this assumption. Furthermore, the child is not a full citizen and does not have equal rights with adults. This lead yet to other laws that stem from "successful" mating. Now that there is another biological entity - without full rights - who has responsibility? Mix into this traditional views, "the way it was for me growing up," religious views, and social theory, and the law is caught up in physiology. When the physiology is not equal, how can people be equal? That is what the anti-ERA people are saying, isn't it? Yet, because my sexuality is different from a man's, should I be paid less money? How did that come to happen? It's all mixed in there, somewhere. Can this be broken apart and examined without getting silly, or titillating, or being an exhibitionist, or feeling shame? (1)
I think that lust and orgasm is a good evolutionary trick but that most of the time during sex, including het sex, the goal is pleasure. AND I think that easy access to pornography and changes in what are considered pornography are changing the ways that we relate - and the way we view ourselves. When I was little I remember that my brothers had a crush on a female cartoon charactuer...I think it was Josi from Josi and the Pussy Cats. I remember thinking that was very funny...that they loved a cartoon, but you know what that happens every day. Everyday men fall in love with two dimensional images of women that are not real...that have been photoshopped to death and doing things that women do not do. And it turns out the images are addictive. (1)
Indeed, if you really stop to think about what is happening when people mate, they would hardly do it if there was no pleasure in it, especially for the woman. I was saying that biology in the sense of why this is happening is because along the way, new humans are introduced into the population. I think men do not have a monopoly of two dimensional caricatures. Many of us swooned during "Sleeping Beauty" or "Pocahontas" and even as adults felt a tug from "Colors of the Wind." If we speak of sexual addition, then is this a lack of sexual fulfillment? What role are we fulfilling in the scheme of things and because of that, should the ERA not be passed? (1)
As I read your comment just after posting mine below, I am struck by how many many aspects there are to any discussion of gender/sexuality issues. I'm also away of how excited I am by the mere possibility of being able to discuss some of them in a mixed forum in ways that might just may NOT degenerate into some kind of havoc. There is indeed an imbalance of power between the genders. Those who have power, generally wish to keep it. Those that haven't got power, want some, and so the endless stuggle continues. It's always the group with less power that want's change. The other difficult aspect of this is that those who have more power, and have always HAD more power, have one dickens of a time truly oand fully understanding how it is to NOT have it! I am not as all sure men wil ever be able to truly absorb how it is to live life as a woman, nor do I ever expect to truly understand what it's like to have lived life as a man. Maybe the best we can strive for is being willing to WANT TO TRY TO KNOW, and to learn how life feels on the other side of the gender divide. Men really do need to stop telling us how we should and shouldn't feel about the lives we've led and instead, just freakin listen, learn and believe us! Geeze, your post raised so many important issues my head is swimming! ONward! scribe (1)
I think the most difficult thing to understand about men is their violence. I am aware of female violence, so I am not saying that men are all violent and women are all angels. I understand all that - I think. What I find different is how men use violence to dominate and get their way. This is part of what I see is the way men say they ought to run things. That is, why would a woman not make a good leader? She's never go to war, or if she did, it would be too late. Moreover, the "other side" and her own general staff would not take her seriously. I am old enough to remember the Cuban Missile Crisis. Part of it stemmed from the fact Khrushchev, the Soviet leader, saw the 43-year-old John Kennedy as a "mere boy." The Soviet leader was used to Eisenhower, the Five star Hero of D-Day and the "Cold Warrior." Khrushchev tried to push Kennedy's buttons until the button almost got pushed. Kennedy was afraid his own generals would turn on him and in some ways they started going out of control. All this high power politics escapes my grasp and it is part of the male milieu. Men say that they must be in charge to deal with other men. I am not sure that I know any woman, even Mrs. Thatcher, who could pull this off. Moreover, who would want to - man or woman? (1)
is that the male power dynamic is very cultural. A lot of us wish we weren't so power-hungry as we are, but it's a fight to get ourselves to give up power over every little thing. A fight that I have been winning lately, but still...a fight. Schweitzer for President! Sign the petition! (0)
? what is it that you think drives men to have these fantasies? Is it society or hormones? Probably a combination of both (behind sexual fantasies, mens and womens both.) ? Why do some men have them and not others? I think most folks have sexual fantasies of one sort or another, somewhere along the way, but many never talk about it. ? How can such fantasies impact an otherwise healthy relationship? Well, if one has strong sexual fantasies they wish to include in a shared sex life, and the other is not willing, you've got an problem. If one partner acts on those fantasies with others, in person, or online or phone, that certainly can create a problem. As it would if the fantasies became a preoccupation for one or the other. But if the sexual fantasies are shared by both, they can add many layers of richness to their shared sexual experiences. ? How can they be controlled? In a person who has adequately developed impulse control and ability to self select behaviors in accord with their values, control of sexual fantasies isn't much of a problem. ? How do you react to men who have them, on either an intellectual or a personal level? Well, let me answer it this way. For me, it was a relief to get older, which made me less noticable and less attractive to males in general. I know for many women, it is pleasing to be viewed and appreciated by men as sexually desirable but it never was that enjoyable to me. I am glad to be done with feeling like I am a rare steak walking around in from of a bunch of hungry guys. I am glad to FINALLY be able to enter into friendships with men, without fear of sexual urges and actions from them coming into the picture and ruining the friendship. I like having having men look me in the eye, rather than talking to my chest. (which is no longer where it once was anyway!) I think (along with the strong hormonal aspects) men are conditioned to see women as sexual object, and woman are conditioned to act as such. I can't think of any other reason for pre adolescent girls starving themselves model-thin, and wearing thongs to the beach. I know that early sexual conquest is still a sigh of "macho-ness" for males, but promiscuity for girls, just as it was in my day. But here's the thing. Once we are adults, a whole world of choices open up to us, the most valuable of all, in my opinion, being the ability to examine and evaluate our own values and beliefs that we have subconsciously internalized from family, school, church and culture. We can then decide if these internalized beliefs are ones we'd voluntarily chose now, as adult, and if they're not, we can change them to ones that do match our chosen values. That takes serious introspection, and lots of it, and a willingness to change oneself. I know I was literally astounded when (far along my in own recovery from early sexual abuse and far into my years of fighting sexism,) I finally realized that my own history had left ME a nearly rabid sexist! To me, for a long time, ALL males were sexual predators waiting to pounce on me or some other vulnerable woman, NONE could ever be trusted, and they ALL went through life led by their crotch, not their brains. Then, (but, unfortunately not till after I became too old to be considered very sexually attractive to men), I finally met enough decent guys..guys who I call "gentle brothers", who weren't at all like those other men who formed my attitudes toward males very early on. Men that were totally trustworthy and open and honest. Men I can and do now consider some of my closet, dearest friends. I still believe that men and woman can overcome many of these gender barriers with a lot of risk-taking and some very hard work that begins, as always, with a sincere, shared committment to do so. It starts, I think, with coming up with a sincere desire to actually hear "how it is", from each others perspective. I mean really HEAR ,and as much as is possible, understand and empathize, without judging or defensiveness. Not easy. not easy at all, but I believe, possible, bit by bit. Thanks for posting this diary and for being respectful of the women here in asking that the other be deleted. ONward! scribe (1)
I agree with your observations that as people get older, sexuality plays less of a part in relationships and physical attraction plays less of a role. The fact remains that this society seems to work better with couples than singles - even two unmarried adults. But given the difference in power, a woman does better with a man than being single. I know this from personal experience. When I am with a male, I get better treatment. The more successful my mate, the more successful I am. My career improves if I have a man. The more successful my man, the more I rise in status, even on my job. And then there's babies. We tend to forget how powerful those drives are - even if we decide not to have children. Here allure becomes important. I hear how men are always staring at women's parts, but I think it is not fair to men to say that they are wicked because they do. Both sexes gauge one another and women use their beauty and allure, whatever level they can muster, to gain in status. It is more than beauty, but a beautiful woman with brains does better than a plain woman with the same amount of brains. The converse is not necessarily true. With two women with the "same" beauty, the one with the brains will probably do better. Being sexually attractive is "good business." It suggests health and health suggests success born of vitality. Sexuality plays a key role in all aspects of life. Some people say it does not and I find difficulty going along with that view. I believe what they are saying is that they "wished" it did not, but it plays into every human interaction - even when we are older. In my view, part of why the Feminist dialog has stalled is the virtual axiom that sex does not/should not play a part in relationships outside of the mate relationship. Yet the evidence to the contrary is vast. The pretty model attracts the eye to the product - even if it is for a feminine product. This state of things is blamed on males and Madison Avenue, but that simply is not in keeping with the reality we all know from Junior High when all the girls were in some clique or other - even if it was being a member of "the girls against cliques." There's some hardwired stuff going on here and because it is hardwired, law makers try to generalize it into legislation that denies equality to women in settings where physiological differences are used to give men power over women. (1)
 Twin sister from a different mother:
I'm only into my 40s, but I can tell you that advancing age was a relief, if only to have the constant intrusive thoughts banging their way into nice contemplation say of a bird's song or a nice painting at a museum only to have my lizard brain whispering omg, look at the ass on her ... I'm so glad someone invented denim ... across my synapsis, drowning out whatever I'd been thinking about. I wouldn't be 18 again if you paid me. Women have NO idea how overwhelming that onslaught of biological drive is ... the only thing I can think of that is close is being really broke, not having anything to eat for days, and being unable to think about anything but food. Wanting/needing/admiring women was like that ALL THE DAMNED TIME. Add to that the cultural pressures to be "one of the guys", not to mention the very welcome attempts by women to GARNER attention ... it's a wonder I got any work or schooling done. Not that it's not still there, but it's no longer as insistent or as intrusive. Whether that is just a biological lessening, or I've learned to do a zen-like look at the thought, acknowledge the thought, release the thought ... >>pooof I can't say for sure. But I'm sure glad I'm older, and the friendships and, when I'm invited, relationships are so much richer and more fulfilling now. I look at male fantasies, and the intrusive thoughts that carry them in, very much like choosing not to punch someone in the face now, but it was much harder to do that when I was young. (0)
Madman, THANK you for this. It has gone further than anything else I have ever read, in helping me better understand how life can feel from inside a young, virile male body. Plus, I can even better understand because as a recovering alcoholic, I well know how it is to have constant, obsessive thoughts and urges interripting all my other brain pathways, at will. Now I am wondering about how much of this is purely biological, thus outside conscious control, and how much of it could be attributed to to societal programming? Generally, I mean. How big a role does how we socialise girls and boys really play in all of this? Thoughts? How would you, for example, raise a boy child today, to help him through this phase? ONward! scribe (1)
it's all of those things, I think. I don't know if you can help a boy through it. One of the things that's been lost are old rites of passage, which I think were designed to define and limit the turmoil of this period. I get the sense that women try to do something to help girls through their entry into womenhood, but boys are left to suss it out for themselves, with peers and the media providing most of the "help". In our modern culture, so dominated by male perogatives run amok, I don't know if anyone will recognize the NEED to help boys through it. "Boys will be boys ..." Well, hopefully boys will be MEN, and to truly be a man is to accept responsibility for your actions ... with a body driven by biology, and a mind driven by conditioning ... to not just BUST OUT, to not just do what you want without care. I learned from comic books, movies and novels. I learned watching what my father did right, and what he did wrong, and how it affected my mother, and how he reacted to her reactions. I learned from a talk we had when I was too young to know what the hell he was talking about:
Men used to run amok because their fathers AND mothers reinforced male perogatives. Now some run amok b/c no one reinforces anything other than their impulses and appetites. Boys are left to teach themselves, so if a boy is drawn to heroic fiction featuring men who try to follow a code of honor, I'd encourage it. (0)
More music... Windows Media Player Clip Why Do Little Girls? Why did the little girls grow crooked Why did the little girls grow crippled Why did the little girls come broken Why were the little girls all frightened And still they bled for us all Why were the little girls left hurtin' Why did the little girls grow crooked (1)
as it is something that we are consciously fighting in ourselves at all times (if we are men who respect women). The urge is always there, but the intelligent man civilizes it. Schweitzer for President! Sign the petition! (0)
 Is it a cultural thing? An educational thing? A Zen thing? Can men learn not to act out on primal urges in ways that break the social contract? Or is it all just so hard-wired violence that society, with nuclear bombs and techno-fascism flirting at the fringes of the right, just has to deal with irrational behavior from men for 30 or so years of their lives? (2)
I think, is simply to recognize that the URGE to act is biologically or culturally hardwired, and stop trying to fight it -- that makes it SO much easier to keep it an urge and not act on it. At least, that's what I'm getting from many here. Schweitzer for President! Sign the petition! (0)
 Scribe wrote, "For me, it was a relief to get older, which made me less noticable and less attractive to males in general. I know for many women, it is pleasing to be viewed and appreciated by men as sexually desirable but it never was that enjoyable to me. I am glad to be done with feeling like I am a rare steak walking around in from of a bunch of hungry guys. I am glad to FINALLY be able to enter into friendships with men, without fear of sexual urges and actions from them coming into the picture and ruining the friendship. I like having having men look me in the eye, rather than talking to my chest. (which is no longer where it once was anyway!) " This is funny because I was just having this conversation with a friend of my teenage daughter yesterday--telling her that while some women rage against getting older and do all they can to delay it, for some of us it's a relief to finally relax. I can now focus on things that are good for me instead of wondering how I'm going to look doing them. (0)
 So here are my questions: what is it that you think drives men to have these fantasies? Is it society or hormones? Why do some men have them and not others? How can such fantasies impact an otherwise healthy relationship? How can they be controlled? How do you react to men who have them, on either an intellectual or a personal level? I think that male fantasies, particularly those that hurt or repress women by their nature, are part social and part biological - just like nearly everything else about humans. The biological part, I don't have any real explanation for - I don't see where such fantasies serve an evolutionary purpose. All I can throw out there is what I've said before, that I think at some point everyone-who-has-fantasies has a fantasy that would not be deemed appropriate given a strong desire to not take advantage of other people. I very strongly do NOT think that having said fantasies is a male perogotive, and the sooner that we as a society can accept that, along with the sooner we as a society can accept that fantasies are fantasies, let's worry about the people who ACT on them, the healthier we all will be. Why do some men have them and not others? That's hard to answer, because we don't really know for sure how many men (or women) do have them - it's not something that a lot of people are willing to admit publicly on a survey. So the number of people who have them may be much higher than we're expecting, perhaps even a majority of people. Again, I think part of the reason is biological and part social, and where the two factors interact in each person is different. I suspect that we are each biologically wired to have different sexual tastes and styles because otherwise, we'd have one man in high demand and one woman in high demand, and the rest of us would be evolutionarily sidelined. Also, if man with a preference for Rubenesque women (for example) finds a woman who fits his preference, and they have children, he may have passed his "Rubenesque women" preference to his offspring either genetically or by demonstrating as they are being raised that this type of women is pleasing. So not only must we be wired to have a variety of preferences, by acting on those, we perpetuate them. I know first hand how fantasies can affect an otherwise healthy relationship. I was in one where he had a common fantasy - a threesome - that I was not comfortable with. It's a hard position to be in - if the fantasy makes a partner that you're otherwise happy with uncomfortable, you're stuck with what I see as two options: You can refuse to discuss the fantasy with her (while not repressing it or giving it up - just don't discuss it) or you can continue to discuss it and risk losing your partner. I won't go into detail about my experience here, because that would constitute hijacking your blog, but I will post separately about it, and about what I've learned or surmised from it if anyone would be interested. Will continue in another comment, I've lost track of what I was saying in the first couple of paragraphs. I'm wordy :-D (0)
for me is that I personally think all sexual fantasies should be discussed by partners in a serious sexual relationship, even if they're not acted on. It's a form of respect to be truthful with your partner, isn't it? Schweitzer for President! Sign the petition! (0)
that is a good idea to discuss fantasies... as long as both parties have an equal opportunity to share... and as long as, if your partner tells you that your fantasy makes her (or him) uncomfortable after hearing it, his/her desire to not discuss it again gets respected. To continue to discuss a fantasy after it's been made reasonably clear that it's unwelcome, IMHO, constitutes "badgering" and a bad idea. (0)
I think there are some fantasies that maybe are best left in the head, especially if there's no (safe) way to act upon it. Does my bf need to know about Bjorn on his white steed carrying a broadsword and truffles? (1)
my personal experience has been that it generally helps to discuss fantasies at some point. my partner and i have found that fidelity is easy if we can "discuss" fantasies. and when i say discuss, i don't mean over tea and crumpets, but, well, in bed. of course, some subjects shouldn't be brought up, i wouldn't want to talk about some assault that still made me sick to my stomach, but within reason. anyone who reads Dan Savage knows the importance of sexual compatibility and realizing fantasies, if only through discussion. (1)
So here are my questions: what is it that you think drives men to have these fantasies? Is it society or hormones? Why do some men have them and not others? How can such fantasies impact an otherwise healthy relationship? How can they be controlled? How do you react to men who have them, on either an intellectual or a personal level? How to control such fantasies strikes me a being an odd question, to be honest. In my mind, it's a little bit like asking how to control the urge to punch someone in the face. I don't know, though, whether you're asking "how do we control an urge that is not socially responsible so that we don't hurt someone by acting on it" or "how do we prevent this urge in the first place", and that makes a big difference. I don't think it's healthy for anyone to repress their fantasies. I don't think it's necessarily healthy to act them out, but I've seen and talked to and know enough women whose fantasies have been repressed because it's just not "socially acceptable" for them to fantasize about hiring a young buff pool boy, or their mate would not want to be tied down, so they simply repress the fantasy and try to make it not happen. And in doing so, too many people repress a large portion of their sexuality. So I don't think it's healthy, for men or women, to repress their fantasies and try to make them go away. On the other hand, it should be very easy for someone clued into such things to recognize that a particular fantasy does not meet their standards for socially responsible behavior. And I'd like to see it be easy to accept, "Ok, so this is what I'm attracted to. I disagree with this urge because I wouldn't like myself very much if I acted on it, so I'll keep it solely as a thought, something to come back to and fantasize about on occasion, but not something I want to actually do." In other words, judge by actions, not desires. *grin* However, I don't know how this idea in general - being able to accept a fantasy as just a fantasy - translates and/or fits into the way that men are socialized. T'would be an interesting discussion. How do I react to men who have these fantasies? Probably about the same way that I react to men who don't have them - I'm assuming, tho, that the men in question don't often act on their fantasies in ways that affect me nor do they insist on bringing the fantasy into every conversation. A man who insisted on bringing into every conversation how much it turns him on to hurt women would find himself not talking to me for very long. I would start wondering quickly, "why is he telling me this? Is he suggesting that he's going to beat me when we're finished fixing his computer so that he can get off? What's the deal?" There's a time and a place for everything, and the way that I interact with most men - professionally or socially - is not the time and place for discussing fantasies. Oh, and I'd start wondering, too, whether he's really so boring that his own sex life is the only thing that he can talk about. For the record: I'm talking here about a generic man, not about this post in particular, when I specify that I would consider such discussion inappropriate for the time and place. (0)
My ex husband is a "sex addict." He was in all other respects a good and loving husband, as well as being a terrific father. However, instead of having an intimate relationship with me, he preferred professionals. This is partly because he acted out on his violent fantasies. Let's be real here. I'm not talking about rapists either. But his video viewing pleasure was watching a woman naked and bound being whipped by a big hooded male screaming profane, demeaning comments. One time he stayed home from work to watch videos and one of my daughters had stayed home from school too. He didn't realize it until she woke up and caught him. He's sick. There was abuse in his family. I can't speak for other males, but his behavior was totally unacceptable. I stayed with him because we were in therapy and he promised to stop. He didn't and I divorced him. Before I go, let me reiterate. He is a kind and gentle man. He is a labor negotiater who does so much good for literally millions of workers. He is intelligient and sensitive. Our daughters adore him. Women at work think he's the greatest. He used to tell me that what he fantasized about had nothing to do with reality and how he really felt about women. But he is a passive agressive. He would put me down, never by actually saying something demeaning. But by something as simple as he never said my name. He always called me his wife. Can you imagine living with someone for twenty years who never called you by your name either when addressing you or talking about you to others? I never heard the word come out of his mouth. I only existed as a mother and a wife. I hope you get the answers you are looking for. I cannot imagine how someone can live with a person who fantasizes about inflicting pain on another living creature. And I can't imagine how a person can stand being treated as an object (such as a wife or a collection of body parts.) Now I am going to sign off and take some medication (I had some kind of a nervous breakdown after the divorce and am seeing a shrink.) And the SCOTUS nomination isn't helping my present state of mind. (1)
 thank you misscee for taking the risk to make your first post so revealing. your perspective and experience on this subject are imporant and i'm grateful to you for sharing them. your voice is very welcome here. please keep posting. oh, and as for your ex never saying your name? What a fucking asshole! i'm sorry you had to put up with him for so long. regarding your post-divorce emotional issues, i don't know what they are and it's none of my business. i don't wish to be presumptuous, but i will say that anyone who was married to that guy for 20 years would be insane not to be depressed, anxious, and angry. so if that's some of what you are feeling, know that you are fully entitled to those feelings and have faith that you will feel better in time. (1)
You did good getting yourself and your children out of there. I was with a hitter for a while and one gets to a mindset where you feel like acts of kindness buy acceptance of abuse, but think about it, when you behave nicely to someone do you think "Well, good, now I can be an asshole cause I was nice to him yesterday." Of course not. People are nothing if not repetitive. How he treated you is how he treats people around him (not just women) and how he would have eventually treated your kids. Just because someone isnt an asshole when they brush their teeth doesn't mean they aren't an asshole. And quit saying he's a good man. He's not a good man. I assume he shares custody with you. When your children have ugly expreiances with him...and they will...you need to acknowledge their pain, not deny it, but harping on his virtues. I think the best way to treat a passive aggressive is to go nuclear. Figure that when you catch them being a jerk there were 10 times that they tripped you up that you didn't catch them and guage your retribution accordingly. It won't cure them...many therapists won't treat passive aggressive personality disorders because they don't get better...but they'll remember that you have teeth and move on to an easier target. (1)
 misscie, thanks so much for posting. I don't presume to know what's going on with you. but i do know that dealing with trauma is so difficult. especially so when the one who bears the burden has done nothing to warrant the bad things that have happened to them. IMHO i think that makes it doubly hard, because it simply isn't fair. please open yourself up to the idea, that if you are down now, and if you're depressed, that the way you feel now isn't neccessarily the way that you'll always be. and it's ok to have days where you are down and depressed. it's ok to have bad days. these are natural reactions to trauma and are a part of the healing process. (1)
Thanks for posting this here. My only comment is that it seems he had many more problems than simply his sex addiction. Schweitzer for President! Sign the petition! (0)
and thanks everyone. As to my personal life, it really isn't depressing at all except when I let the past catch up with me. I have a SO who is 12 years younger than me and wonderful. Respect is the key. You know when it's there .... and when it isn't. I think most fantasies are just that ...make believe. But in my ex's case, his deeper disrespect for women (and for himself) turned his fantasies into a kind of alternate reality where he lived a large part of his life. Very sad. I was surfing around in the wake of the SCOTUS announcement and just happened to find this place. I don't usually jump right into a community like this without lurking a bit first. Thanks for welcoming me! (0)
Especially when the consequences cause suffering in others. It's something I really don't understand. Fantasies happen because they do. There they are. Deal with it. But fantasies don't get acted upon on their own -- they are acted upon by the fantasizer. In a consenting relationship, it could work, with clear limits and understanding that it has to be mutually enjoyable or it has to stop immediately. But how many fantasies are acted out without anyone else's permission? Rape is not a crime of passion, it's a crime of violence, an assertion of power. When men act out on a rape fantasy, where is the eroticism? Many rapists apparently are impotent. So how does that fit in? If so many men can control a passing sex fantasy, why are a few men so unable to? Why is male aggression coupled with lust for sex and lust for power socially accepted? Even on the benign level. A man grabs a woman's ass, it's "oh you bad boy," this from other guys, often with admiration. But a man grabs another man's ass, and the fists start flying. Different standards of behavior there. Is it addiction? If so, then maybe medical treatment would be helpful. (2)
A Native American grandfather was talking to his grandson about his feelings. He said, "I feel as if I have two wolves fighting in my heart. One wolf is the vengeful, angry, violent one. The other wolf is the loving, compassionate one." The grandson asked him, "Which wolf will win the fight in your heart?" The grandfather answered, "The one that I feed." (2)
Part of this comment that I made to a post that Maruta posted on Male Fantasies vs. Political Realities. I think it's pertinent. "It's important to note the difference between fantasy and what a person (well, in this case a man) would do in actuality. And it's as unrealistic to expect men to stop sexualizing women as it is for women to stop sexualizing men. Humans think about sex, a lot, and when we're not thinking about it some of us are spending an inordinate amount of time trying to have it. Then we get into good fantasy/bad fantasy territory. How pc do our fantasies have to be? Do we have control over them? What are the forces that have formed what we get aroused by? If it's something that happened in childhood, a la Freud, then we essentially have no control or even responsibility for them. On the other hand, if you're just a jackass who thinks women are nothing but potential sexual objects (or else that hated category, the "unsexy"), then maybe you should be ashamed of how you fantasize. We're getting into sticky territory when we deal with men's sexuality (absolutely no pun intended, although it would be funny if it were), partly cuz for the most part we're not men, and partly because thought policing is bad politics. I'll give two personal examples. My fantasy life (which no, I will NOT share) involves something that I would NEVER NEVER NEVER want to have happen in real life. And yeah, if it were something else that got me off (some sepia-tinted slow-motion soft-focus erotic fantasy) I'd be happy to have that, because at least it would be something I'd have a chance of actually doing in real life, instead of just fantasizing about. But I can't help what turns me on, and after literally years of soul-searching I just decided that the knowledge that I was keeping it safely in my head was enough comfort. Second personal example. In my phone ho days (that's phone fantasy operator for the uninitiated) I had a customer with a fantasy that was personally repulsive to me. Fortunately it didn't take much to satisfy him (he was a quick kind of guy), and apparently he liked me because he would call me at least once a day. One day after a session he immediately called me back, just to chat. And the focus was, well, how much he hated having this fantasy, that he knew it was horrid and illegal and hateful, but he just couldn't help it. And he was almost in tears with gratitude to have a safe generic girl to have this fantasy with. I didn't get the feeling he was the type to go out and do what he fantasized...just a normal joe whose sexual impulses got seriously fucked up." I don't have an answer for the question of why some men want to dominate women. There is nothing that is easy to put a finger on. It's along the same lines as why do some women want to be dominated? Why, for that matter, do some men salivate at the idea of a woman in high heels and stockings calling him a worthless piece of shit and mocking his penis size? Who knows? I think the issue is not so much what men want as what they do. Nonpartisan is at least acknowledging something that most men would rather be closeted about. And in doing so he's taken an essential step toward being a whole human being. Much better than so-called allies who still think "women's issues" take the back seat to larger, more macho issues--like the Supreme Court, for example. (0)
Amen! (1)
to try to become more of a "whole human being." And to play a role in the community, of course. But a lot of it is selfish. I want to learn from y'all. :) Schweitzer for President! Sign the petition! (0)
..to wish to understand others better, so we can learn from each other, thus come to understand ourselves better? Doesn't this lead us all to being more able to feel empathy and compassion and enhance our understanding for each other? And an ability to be better able to communicate with each other, and come close to each other? No way is this selfish in my book. :) scribe (1)
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